Challenger PvP, Bonus Points and Quick Wins

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#1

So… I don’t understand the bonus points. Or more, HOW they’re earnt.
SOUNDS obvious, do the thing the points say, get more of them but then the problem is… it sort of doesn’t work.

At least, not in a way I’ve been able to make sense of.

Let’s use this season as an example. The bonus points are for “each time damage is dealt” and “all Fantastic damage dealt to opponents”.
Sounds simple, right?
Now here’s the issue I’m having figuring these out, for the first points, I’ve already made an outright topic about, but to summarize, the points actually gained by individual hits seemed inconsistent. 1 hit got 90, 2 got 109 and an utter barrage of weak hits managed 209. (SEEMS impressive, but if the pattern shown by the first 2 hits holds true, that suggests it only did 7-8 hits when in actuality it did MUCH more)
For the second points, we have a case where one of the rules of the season negated normal damage, which actually provided an interesting insight.
Namely, taking out a team using fantastic damage exclusively only yielded 150 points, regardless of damage actually done. Seemingly independent of max HP, health recovery or shield. Some testing later revealed this to be 30 points per 100% fantastic damage per hero (Thanks to Moist and Taz for helping confirm this.)

Confusion around those aside, the issue comes from how much points can be gained from these went compared to quick wins.
I understand that the point of quick win points was to stop people from just posting their weakest hero and derive opponents from points THAT way, which I agree with strongly, but the problem I’ve always had with that was the encouragement of, what I call, “stalling heroes”. Heroes that don’t actually DO much for the team in question but just refuse to DIE long enough to run out the points there. Hades was the go-to for this for a while but he’s now been replaced by Kronk and Kermit and the like because SOMEONE thought whole team invincibility was a good idea.
Regardless, this creates a circumstance were if you ask ANYONE who goes through the PvP modes with any sort of competitiveness, they’ll tell you you’re outright wasting your time if you aren’t quick winning. THAT’S how prevalent the points are.
Quick win points cap out at 750, which would be fine, in my opinion, if it wasn’t for 2 things.
1: it stacks with bonus points.
and 2: bonus points seem incapable of reaching that high.

Next season’s bonus points are for “normal damage done” and “remaining HP.”
one is capped at 150, the other 200 (previous experimentation showed this). 350 points, in case you’re bad at maths.

In other words, even if someone manages to win with 100% normal damage and 100% remaining health, it’ll mean nothing compared to a team that deals almost all fantastic damage, kills itself in the process, but manages in 4 seconds.

I’ve always been of the opinion that bonus points should be comparable to quick win points, ESPECIALLY if the bonus points in question strongly favor a prolonged fight.

6 Likes
#2

I have to agree with you. It won’t be very long and everyone will have kronk and Kermit as their default. So in the distribution. Especially from week 3.
That is boring.
This is furthered by the fact that as you write the bonus point are worth so little.
It must not be that the quick time bonus has more value than the seasonal bonus points.
This is indeed a serious disigne mistake.

1 Like
#3

Another guild member reported 42 more points (2182 total) and i doubt this is the limit.

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#4

Turns out I misremembered the exact caps.
It’s 30 per hero (sidekicks included) for the HP remaining, and 255 for normal damage done (which MAY be 51 per hero on the enemy team, I’ve yet to go up against a sidekick this season)

Still, with this in mind, if we assume we somehow do 100% normal damage regardless of everything else, in order to match the quick win bonus points, you will need to have a team with 17 heroes in it.

#5

Wow, this has been a while, but my overall point has more or less consolidated with it.
There’s a specific defense meta team that’s going around recently, and honestly, I don’t see how it’ll ever stop.

It goes as follows, Hades (A notorious time waster with his revival and invincibility) + Mad Hatter (Makes team immune to disables at the start and is immune himself) + Ian (Starting reflect to backline) + Joy (Protection from disable removal for half the duration of the quick wins) + Meg (Frontline cannot be defeated while she is still active, additionally shares some buffs with linked hero)

Literally impossible to quick win against, and with Hatter, even screws over most bonus points that can be gained.

2 Likes
#6

So?
That’s good. Way more F2P…

Next you will complain about invasion lines.

#7

It’s a bit more complicated than that.
In general, I’ve always disliked when a meta essentially boils down into “Do this one thing to win or you’re an idiot.” because that’s BORING.

The point I’ve been trying to make since the start is that the current system is essentially antithetical to experimentation because of how it’s designed. The defending team is supposed to incentivise reducing the points gained rather than trying to win the match.

This in mind, let’s consider how points are gained.

First, there’s the 1000 points gained by winning the match, more or less a given because almost no-one is making a team with the intent to actually win.
Then, there’s the 750 quick win points. With the meta team described, those are moot, explicitly because of Hades, Ian, Meg and Joy. Hades’ is already incredibly difficult to quick win because of his double case of invincibility and his revival animation taking up precious time, Ian and Meg ensure that Hades’ can’t even take damage for the first 5 seconds of the match and Joy negates any attempts to mitigate that.

Then you have the debuff points, which are usually around 200, assuming all damage done is done to someone with that debuff. Hatter stops any debuff from happening for the first 4 seconds.

Then there’s defensive points like Shield or Healing, which is capped about 30 per hero on your team assuming you’re healing or shielding an equivalent of the max HP, but only one character in that line up actually does any damage worth considering.

In short, the team is purposely designed to counter challenger pvp as a concept, and each league is going to get more and more boring as more and more people get used to it, to the point where each season is just going to be figuring out what combination of heroes you have squeeze you JUST that little bit of points each week and being stuck with that the whole season.

1 Like
#8

@Hypersayia I’m really glad you brought this up, and thank you for providing the math. I wholeheartedly agree about the flaws of the current system, which sadly boils down to “Go quick or go home”.

You explain well why the quick win bonus is larger than the mechanics bonus - the problem PB addressed with this is actually pretty complex to solve, but what they did is a bandaid, not a solution. It is clear why PB did what they did - so lets try to propose a working solution to PB or nothing will change.

#10

Part of the problem is that I don’t actually HAVE the proper math to tell how everything is calculated, and without that, I can’t make much definitive suggestions. The caps I’ve noted are estimates based on what figures I’ve been able to get, both by myself and what I’ve been told by others.

Still, there are a few things I would feel comfortable making a change too right off the bat.

1: Split the 750 quick win bonus into 5 150 quick beat bonuses (or 750/n where n is the number of characters in the defending team), so any team based on lasting past the quick win window has to find a way to get the whole team to do so, as opposed to just one or two.

2: Don’t have a cap on the fight bonus points. This one is slightly more complex because part of it appears based on percentage effects (for instance, DOT bonus points seem based on the percentage of damage done that is DOT), but it’s the low caps that’s the main cause of the problem to begin with.

3: For bonus points that give points based on damaging a debuffed character, have any attack that gives said debuff contribute to that score. (This one is more just a minor nitpick for me)

#11

I really like this idea, and think it would by itself go a long way to alleviating the issue of boring, stale, omnipresent stall teams. Building on that, I’d suggest the following:

  1. Make the Quick Win bonus 500/n for each hero, where n is the number of heroes in the defending lineup, not counting summoned or “extra” characters (e.g., Sven, Rajah, Beaker clones).

  2. Have the other two bonuses capped at 250, again split up among the non-summoned heroes of the relevant team. So, e.g., if one bonus is for using DoT and the defense has three heroes, then each hero is worth up to 84 points depending on how much damage done to them is through DoT.

Bonus points based on “earn points each time your team does X” would be trickier to cap; I’d think that, using the recent knockback rule for an example, the attacking team could get 50/n points per knock back to each opposing hero, up to 5 knockbacks per hero (so if you knock back Ralph 8 times and Vanellope twice, you’d get full points for Ralph and 40% of points for Vanellope).

I doubt there’s any ideal system for assigning points so that strategy is fairly rewarded while keeping the meta from devolving into one dominant, repetitive strategy, but I think those changes stand a fair chance of making strides towards that ideal while not being too difficult or risky to implement.

Interesting idea, although if the extreme reliance on Quick Win points is reduced, I think this would be less of an issue. It would be something to keep in mind, at least.

#12

I would like to propose a more drastic solution aimed at removing the problem:

  1. First, replace the current damage based bonuses with binary quest like conditions (similar to surge quests). E.g. Silence a hero, Place a dot on a hero, Win with no damage heroes, Win with exactly 1 red hero, etc. You get flat points for each one you complete, regardless of how much damage you do. These are just examples, PB can figure out quests that are both interesting to do and hard to deny with a weak team.

  2. Second, replace “Quick win” with “Decisive win”. It should be based on how much you crushed the opponent, regardless of how much time it took you. The exact formula for “Decisive win” can be further discussed, but an example would be how much % of your power is remaining after you win (e.g. a hero at 30% hp would count as 30% of his power, dead hero is 0%).

In my opinion the above 2 combined eliminate the root of the problem rather than try to mitigate it. The lack of damage component for bonuses and the need to prevent decisive wins will force people to make strong defenses that also try to counter popular heroes used for the bonuses. Attackers will need a more diverse portfolio of heroes to pick from to do the bonuses.

#13

next season and, to everyone’s great surprise (not), out of 180+ heroes we’ve got the exact same defence in the top tiers of Challenger.

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:zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz:

6 Likes
#14

I get the feeling PerBlue doesn’t consider the repetitive nature of PvP lineups to be a problem. Just another game mode where you unthinkingly tap a button a few times a day to complete your daily quest. :man_shrugging:

1 Like
#15

Think we need to start having off duty heroes in arena and coliseum force us to use different heroes each season

#16

There is a bug in coliseum that some lines with 5 toons appeared with 1 toon only sometimes, I’m afraid this is happening in arena too or maybe some players discovered how to make this happen in arena and keep winning every month by same players as they agree between themselves who should be champion every season

#17

Quick fights points should be removed totally

#18

An interesting solution I’d not thought of before would be to add Quick Win points as a percentage of Bonus Points earned.

So if we earned 200 bonus points and got a full quick win, we’d get an additional 200 points on top. 200 points and half a quick win would give an additional 100 points.

Then, a quick win with no bonus points would be worthless, and preventing quick wins would be much less important than preventing bonus points.

… Yes, Hatter will still dominate defence as he does every season, but it’s a start.

We’ve discussed many decent starting points of ideas, anyway - nothing will be changed at all, but it’s somewhat interesting to wonder how much better it could be.

1 Like
#19

The quick win points needs to be removed and keep bonus points only

#20

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#MakeArenaFunAgain

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#21

There used to not be a quick-win bonus in Challenger leagues.

Players just put up their weakest heroes to deny attackers any bonus points.

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